Community turbine: public consulted over plans
Bryan Copland • Published 19 Jan 2012 09:19
40 Comments
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A PUBLIC consultation exercise on community and privately owned wind turbines has been launched as part of plans to erect a community turbine for Dunbar.
Dunbar Community Energy Company (DCEco) wants a small turbine erected on Cocklaw Hill, south-east of the town, which would be fully owned by the community and generate profits to be spend on local projects and jobs.
If successful, the company believes that an average of about £200,000 could be generated every year for the next 20 years.
DCEco has launched a public consultation including an opinion survey which, at an early stage, shows greater support for community-owned turbines rather than private ones.
DCEco is encouraging locals to have their say about the proposals, either through doorstep interviews, online at www.dun barcommunityenergy.org.uk or at an opinion day at Dunbar Library on Thursday (January 26) between 2pm and 7.30pm, where the results of the survey will be available.
Questionnaires can also be picked up at the BeGreen shop on West Port, Dunbar.
Malcolm Sayers, of DCEco, said: "We fully support sensitively sited wind turbines which cut carbon emissions.
"However, it is clear that as communities up and down Scotland carry the cost for these through taxes, energy bills or visual impact, they should also benefit from their profits.
"We call upon the people of the area to help us secure a community-owned turbine for the sole benefit of the community."
The company's Iain Waugh added: "Public opinion is very important to us. Public suggestions about how to spend the money from a community turbine have included planting trees and youth employment.
"Other options include help to improve the energy efficiency of homes and community transport initiatives.
"We are really grateful that people are giving their ideas."
More information on the turbine bid can be found on DCEco's website.
Have your say. Post a comment on this article.
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steve
Unregistered User
Jan 19, 12:28
Report commentWould be fine if all the profit was spent in the Innerwick area. If Dunbar residents desire a wind turbine they can have one overlooking their housing schemes.
Recommend?
Yes 14
No 0
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concerned resident
Unregistered User
Jan 19, 18:37
Report commentThis is simply robin hood in reverse : robbing everyone to enrichen the few.
In 2011 the UK electricity consumer paid £25million to windfarms, just to switch them off and produce nothing .
The eco nutters are at it again ; and once again the result will be higher electricity prices, which hurt ordinary folk , while the well to do incomers that run Sustaining Dunbar can easily not notice the increased electricity bills.
Recommend? Yes 21
No 5
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BIGAL
Unregistered User
Jan 19, 21:52
Report commentAs the renewables obligation subsidy adds ~100% increase in the price that these windmills are paid why not let us buy the power from Torness or Cockenzie at half the price and save ourselves some money.
The windmill will not produce more power than we use in the area therefore we are paying for a windmill to be built and paying locally, twice the going rate for the power it produces.
WE MUST HAVE MUG STAMPED ON OUR FOREHEADS!!!
Recommend? Yes 12
No 4
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 19, 22:36
Report commentMore money to keep the crew at Sustaining Dunbar in jobs. Maybe it's about time to hear what they have actually accomplished with all the funding they have received.
Recommend? Yes 24
No 5
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DunbarCommunityEnergyCo
7 posts
Jan 20, 16:27
Report commentIf the community support the idea of a turbine on Cocklaw Hill it would be more visible from Dunbar than Innerwick. Our community area is all of Ward 7, from Oldhamstocks to Tyninghame and up to the hills. Dunbar, West Barns, Innerwick, East Linton, Spott, Stenton etc are all included.
"Robin Hood in reverse" well said, exactly our point. Each year approximately £88,980 is added to our (ward 7) electricity bills and goes to the companies that own wind turbines. That will keep happening. With a community wind turbine, that money comes back into the community. How should we spend it?
We cannot buy electricity from Torness or Cockenzie. Gas and electricity is controlled by large companies (profit making). If communities started getting more involved in making and selling electricity things could start changing. Like the high price paid for not making electricity.
Until then, we all have the MUG on our foreheads, quite right.
As for Sustaining Dunbar. I have worked with households, dealing with high bills, all across East Lothian. I saw better results for people who could be supported by the Be Green energy advice service (through Sustaining Dunbar) than anywhere else in the county.
How the money is spent will be decided by public suggestions and a vote. We have suggested some ideas that we think will create jobs and provide services locally. Someone has suggested that we should spend some of it on having a "party". Maybe that's what we all need when all we hear about is job losses and pay cuts. We would have some money left over too. No party could cost £200,000 a year!!
We need to create local jobs, like Sustaining Dunbar did with the community bakery. Who are advertising more jobs right now - http://thebakerydunbar.org/work-with-us/
Vote on-line
dunbarcommunityenergy.org.uk
Recommend? Yes 7
No 9
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 20, 17:33
Report commentOf course you're going to push this - it's in your interest to do so. You're nothing but subsidy junkies. How much goes on salaries and benefits for those employed by Sustaining Dunbar?
Recommend? Yes 24
No 4
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smallal
Unregistered User
Jan 20, 22:25
Report commentIt's time everyone woke up the the reality of the situation. Everyone will be paying extra in their electricity bill for this wind turbine, private or community owned, the £200,000 just does not appaear out of thin air (!) Far better to make homes more fuel efficient so we pay less and save more. A unit of electricity from nuclear power costs half that from wind power.
Recommend? Yes 17
No 3
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DunbarCommunityEnergyCo
7 posts
Jan 21, 14:36
Report commentChucklebunny,
“Subsidies” come from us to pay for things that are either,” in the public interest” or “to keep the price of a product or service low.”
That means lots of jobs depend on us paying for them. Like the emergency services, some fishing and farming and the council and government overall. That’s the way society works.
The public opinion poll will decide on how the money is spent, that’s a condition of the loan. Dunbar Community Energy Company then passes this information to the board of Sustaining Dunbar. A “business plan” for spending the money is created and we have to agree it with the community. However, if the community doesn’t support the plan, it will not happen. We don’t know who gets a job yet, the vote is still open. You are right though, if successful, Sustaining Dunbar will employ people to put the plan into action. More jobs or no jobs, up to you really. I’m putting some information on the website because I think this is a very important point, thanks for bringing it up.
The board of Sustaining Dunbar have to answer to the members. Everyone and anyone in the area can become a member. It’s as democratic as you can get, unless people don’t join in the discussion. The big companies would be happy if we stay divided, that way they can keep putting prices up and we keep paying them.
Recommend? Yes 8
No 11
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DunbarCommunityEnergyCo
7 posts
Jan 21, 14:40
Report commentsmallal,
I hope you agree that we are honest about where the money comes from. It is from our electricity bills. As for nuclear, almost every nuclear power station will need replacing in the next ten years or so and new ones cost between £2 billion and £5 billion depending on who you listen to. This cost will be on our electricity bills and, yet again the profit goes to the shareholders and banks. Just like private wind turbines. Don't get me wrong, I’m not saying we have the answer to the global or national energy problem. We're just offering a way to make the best of it locally.
You're right, it is far better to make homes more fuel efficient so we pay less. How do we pay for the insulation and new heating systems? With the new "Green Deal" coming from the UK government it will be paid for by us, on our bills. Or we could pay for it from money made with community energy, if that is the community choice. Most people I meet think it makes sense to get the money back, provide services and create jobs.
Recommend? Yes 7
No 8
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concerned resident
Unregistered User
Jan 22, 17:37
Report commentIf something needs subsidised , it means it doesnt stack up from an econoic point of view. For many ordinary people, if their job doesnt stack up from an economic, they lose it. P45 and the dole.
For the subsidy crew at Sustaining Dunbar, hardly a local amongst them by the way, a subsidy mean job security. It is the economics of the mad house, with the lunatics in
charge and their snouts in the trough. They are as unwelcome as the greedy bankers.
Sustaining Dunbar currently funds slaries from Scottish Government grants. Yes , tax payers money, at a time of cuts in essential services. They know they will lose their subsidy from the taxpayer, and are looking for an income stream to replace their
gold plated source of their salaries. They see the electricity consumer , and the ROC subsidy , as that income stream. This is simple self interest, self preservation, and selective greed. It is disgusting.
Recommend? Yes 14
No 6
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concerned resident
Unregistered User
Jan 22, 17:48
Report commentSustaing Dunbar ?
Sustaining our salaries at someone else's expense more like.
Recommend? Yes 11
No 3
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 23, 08:26
Report commentSimple question for Sustaining Dunbar. How much has been spent on salaries? Simple question for the public. How many of you have any idea what this lot actually do for the community?
Recommend? Yes 12
No 1
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DunbarCommunityEnergyCo
7 posts
Jan 23, 11:25
Report commentOkay, this is a big problem. If Sustaining Dunbar do not represent the community then they cannot, and should not move forward with community energy.
If they do not, who will? I don’t like the idea of all the ROC subsidies going to the big companies so how do we sort it out?
There is very little time to take advantage of this. Pretty soon the hills and sea will be taken up with privately owned wind turbines with no room left for community energy. Our bills will still go up and no more jobs to pay them.
I would like to meet up. You can contact me through the website, it comes directly to me. I find it better to communicate face to face than by typing. I am not a member of Sustaining Dunbar, I’m on a short term contract to develop community energy. So I’m as independent as we have at the moment.
This isn’t just about Dunbar and district, it matters to other communities too. Community energy projects have divided communities; let’s not allow that to happen here. Get in touch, if it comes to nothing, fine but I think we should try.
Iain
dunbarcommunityenergy.org.uk
Recommend? Yes 3
No 6
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 23, 12:24
Report commentThe debate seems to be more about how money is being spent by Sustaining Dunbar. I can't see anything on their web site about how money is spent. Their income in the last finacial year was £248k and I ask again how much went on salaries? If you can't answer pass it on to one of the charity trustees. Maybe our Councillors, who we all know look at this site, would care to comment?
Recommend? Yes 6
No 2
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 23, 15:37
Report commentSeven staff employed according to their website. What's the salary bill and what have they done to earn it? Answers please. Courier journalist - why not do a bit of reporting on this rather than rely on their PR handouts. Fundings been cut for our old people yet it's available for these non-jobs.
Recommend? Yes 9
No 1
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concerned resident
Unregistered User
Jan 23, 17:25
Report commentCommunity Energy ?
is that the same concept as community windpower ?
They advertise community windfarms which are in fact privately owned ;
They advertise community involvement, yet lie through their teeth at public meetings, and hide the truth at every possible opportunity .
The are owned by 2 accountants who whizz round the country in top of the range 4 x 4 gas guzzlers, and make millions of pounds out of community windfarms. They ruin landscapes, and peoples lives . Very community based , I am sure.
How high is the turbine ?
Who are the windfarm company behind it ?
Why the secrecy ?
Can you promise that there will only ever be one ?
Why does ' community ' these day mean contributions from everybody, and benefits for the select few, mostly private indiviuals, or else subsidy junkies. ( sustaining Dunbar ) ?
happy to meet up , but I have been researching this subject for the best part of the last three years. I started off being totally convinced of the value wind turbines , and of the reality of man made climate change . On the basis of my research , I now believe
wind turbines are simply an inefficient means of regressive taxation and thus very ANTI community , and AGW is simply a monumental confidence trick . The real inconvenient truth is that none, repeat none, of Al Gore's predictions show any sign of being recogniseable. It is a massive con. The community aspect is simply a fig leaf to cover up the regressive nature of the beast . EVERY windturbine puts more people into energy poverty. Some community spirit that.
Recommend? Yes 7
No 4
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 23, 18:05
Report comment -
BIGAL
Unregistered User
Jan 23, 20:33
Report commentDunbarCommunityEnergyCo
"Okay, this is a big problem. If Sustaining Dunbar do not represent the community then they cannot, and should not move forward with community energy.
If they do not, who will? I don’t like the idea of all the ROC subsidies going to the big companies so how do we sort it out?"
That is the real problem, these windmills should be able to generate at market rates not subsidies from the electricity user in the form of ROCs. Each one being erected puts a little more on our bills. The arguement should not be that we want a bit of the action, we want the lowest prices available paid to the generators.
Recommend? Yes 1
No 0
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 23, 22:27
Report commentSustaining Dunbar do not represent the community. Like many organisations fed by generous amounts of tax payers money they have little accountability to those tax payers. What has Dunbar seen for the money lavished on them? A leaflet about bus and train routes, some information about cycle paths and information about energy use that is readily available from many other sources. When,as a society, we are cutting back on essential services it's time for his group to be given their marching orders.
Recommend? Yes 11
No 3
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 24, 16:56
Report commentCome on now - you're keen enough to talk up your successes. If you're so open and accountable why not publish the information on your web site? Or are you frightened we find out you're treating yourselves as generously as the Community Bakery? £9,600 a year for a 10 hour week for an "enterprise manager" with the chance to earn an extra £20 an hour. Wake up Dunbar and see what's going on here.
Recommend? Yes 6
No 0
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DunbarCommunityEnergyCo
7 posts
Jan 24, 20:37
Report commentBigal
The price paid out from our electricity bills for wind turbines, the ROC, is about £16 per year per household (ofgem). Our bills go up because almost 50% of our electricity is made by gas powered steam turbines. The price of gas keeps going up just like the price of oil. What happens at the petrol pumps happens to our electricity bills.
Concerned resident
I’ve updated the website to answer your questions. Thanks for pointing the issue out. The community wind turbine that best fits the site would be 74 m (to blade tip). That’s a 50m tower, with three blades each 24 meters long. It would be about half the size of the commercial wind turbines that we see on the hills. There will be only one. The grid connection will only be strong enough for one medium sized turbine.
Community energy is not the same as Community Windpower. As you say, Community Windpower is a private company and they own the Aikengall wind farm. All the profits from Dunbar Community Energy Company will be reinvested into the local community. There is no wind farm company “behind it”.
The result of the public opinion poll so far will be revealed this Thursday, 26th January at Dunbar Library between 2pm and 730pm.
dunbarcommunityenergy.org.uk
Recommend? Yes 2
No 1
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 24, 20:48
Report commentDon't pretend it's an opinion poll. Opinion polls use a controlled, unbiased population to get their results. All you've got is a survey of people who can be others to access your online survey.
Recommend? Yes 5
No 2
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confused
Unregistered User
Jan 24, 21:47
Report commentNatural gas prices in the USA are at a 10 year low.
Poland is floating on shale gas, and is starting to exploit it.
Shale gas is a game changer.
Electricity prices are high due to ROC obligations, and electricity consumers ( including
hospitals, old folks homes etc ) paying wind farm companies £25 million a year to prodice nothing.
Gas generated electricity is about 1/8 th the price of wind power generated electricity, that is why consumers are FORCED ( very community minded ) to buy wind generated
electricity.
Denmark has more wind turbines per head of the population than anywhere else in Europe . Denmark also has the highest electricity prices in Europe. These two facts are intimately connected.
If you want to run off truly renewable electricity, get on with building an interconnector from Norway ; they are self sufficient in Hydro, which is also the only reasonable route for scotland .
Wind turbines are a scam ;21st century snake oil ; it will all end in tears and obsolete
towers ruining our remaining rural lanscapes.
Recommend? Yes 5
No 1
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concerned resident
Unregistered User
Jan 24, 21:54
Report commentThe subsidy junkie from sustaining Dunbar ( directly or indirectly ) said :
' The community wind turbine that best fits the site would be 74 m (to blade tip). That’s a 50m tower, with three blades each 24 meters long. It would be about half the size of the commercial wind turbines that we see on the hills '
2 X 74 m = 148m ( at least it did when I did my maths degree, maybe the eco nutters have changed this, as well as the fundamentals of physics ) .
Nowhere , thank goodness, do we see 148m high turbines on the hills. They do not exist.
He cannot even get his basic fact correct, how can he be trusted ?
Recommend? Yes 7
No 2
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DunbarCommunityEnergyCo
7 posts
Jan 25, 10:24
Report commentThanks concerned resident, my mistake... I was thinking of the initial proposed height of the Wester Dod extension of Aikengall Wind Farm (privately owned) which would be 134 meters to blade tip. Most of the turbines on the hills are around 120 meters to blade tip, higher than our 74 meters, but not twice as high. My mistake.
Interconnector to Norway indeed sounds like a plan. Not convinced about shale gas I have to say, not exactly a cheap way of getting energy. Whenever I look at these options, I think of the motivation behind them. Who is going to make money out of fossil fuels and keeping energy centralised? The big companies as always.
I still say we don't have an answer to the global energy crisis, or even the national problem. Jobs are being lost and pay is being cut while everything is getting more expensive. We're just suggesting a way to create local jobs from a wind turbine.
Recommend? Yes 3
No 4
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 25, 12:19
Report commentOn and on they go! What jobs, other than the ones for the usual suspects. Their noses are so deep in the trough I doubt if their ankles stick out. It's really a simple question: How much did employees and consultants of Sustaining Dunbar earn last year? While we're at at maybe Mr Waugh would like to tell us how much he's earning while pushing this project along. I urge the Courier to do a bit of investigative reporting on this so called charity.
Recommend? Yes 15
No 5
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hoegaathet
Unregistered User
Jan 26, 15:38
Report commentSometimes people just want to do the right thing without having their own hidden agenda, although in this day and age it may seem hard to believe. I live here in Dunbar and like that someone wants to make a change to life for everyday working folk, in anyway possible.
Recommend? Yes 4
No 5
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 26, 18:17
Report commentEveryday folk? Have a look at their website - there's very little they've done for everyday working folk.
Recommend? Yes 6
No 2
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walker
Unregistered User
Jan 26, 19:15
Report commentAlas there are hidden agendas. Look deeper beneath the surface information. In its purest form this might be an idea but unfortunately it is not all that it seems.
The public consultation did not answer questions posed in questionnaires, such as...
- it creates jobs for whom?
- who exactly will this benefit, including any staff/directors of a subsidary organisation whose funding has ended?
- who will be in charge of the spend?
- it's a loan which pays for the turbine, this needs to be paid back so when do the benefits start?
- who are the people involved/have an interest? Directors? Who are they accountable to?
- is there a neutral body overseeing?
- have displacement issues been considered?
- what is Cambium Advocacy's involvement and how are they benefiting?
- where is the transparent and clear business plan?
- what are projected figures based on?
- will The Grid purchase?
- exactly which homes and businesses will benefit from any surplus sold to The Grid?
- what does the landowner gain?
- should it be sited at Innerwick when they gain no benefit?
Recommend? Yes 19
No 1
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 26, 21:53
Report commentAgree. There is a distinct lack of transparency here. It's interesting that they have not responded to any of my points - probably because it would show up how little they have achieved for the money spent. Just think what could have been done with £248k if most of it hadn't been spent on funding non-jobs.
Recommend? Yes 6
No 1
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hoegaathet
Unregistered User
Jan 26, 23:05
Report comment -
Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 27, 08:45
Report commentI'm not sure. Their Board is a joke, made up up fellow travellers. Public pressure, and pressure from the local Councillors is probably the main thing. And a bit of press interest would help. I know the Courier monitors these comments - it wouldn't take them too much digging to get a story out of this.
Recommend? Yes 9
No 4
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 29, 09:41
Report commentHere's some financial highlights from 2010:
Salaries: £115,504
Membership Income: £25
And they claim to represent the community? Much more stuff in their annual report - well worth the £1 to download from Companies House.
Recommend? Yes 9
No 0
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concerned resident
Unregistered User
Jan 29, 18:17
Report commentMembership Income £25 ?
What a joke they are , a sick sick joke .
At least they appear to have progressed ever so slightly from simply being a mouthpiece for windfarm companies, or have they ?
Sustaining Dunbar ? Sustaining themselves at other peoples expense.
Are there any actual locals involved ?
Recommend? Yes 10
No 1
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 29, 20:21
Report commentI think some of the employees live locally but their profiles suggest that none of them came off the dole queue. Frankly I think it's shocking that they are allowed to bun money like this. The council leader is one of their Directors - I wonder if he thinks they are good value for money?
Recommend? Yes 1
No 1
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 29, 21:11
Report commentQuote from Philip Revell, one of their employees: "I am currently project coordinator for Sustaining Dunbar, a transition initiative and development trust which is aiming to inspire, nurture and facilitate our community's transition to a vibrant, creative, locally resilient future beyond fossil fuels." Well folks, there you have it - and all that for only £115k. Minus, of course, the £25 contributed by members.
Recommend? Yes 6
No 1
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concerned resident
Unregistered User
Jan 30, 22:41
Report commentProject Coordinator ? all he does go round seeking out sources of subsidies , most of which are tax payer funded. The entire organisation exists purely to spend other peoples money ; still , keeps them off the dole , I suppose ; others, who had real jobs
are not so lucky !
How many jobs will this turbine provide.
How much will they bleed the ordinary households to switch it off when it is too windy ?
If it goes on fire, how will they contain the fire ? ( No fire tender can get up there and pump water 200ft high .)
Crass, dangerous juvenile poorly researched nonsense.
Recommend? Yes 8
No 5
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Jan 31, 18:38
Report commentThey're hoping I will go away - but I won't. I'll take every opportunity of bringing their "contribution" to Dunbar to as wide an audience as possible.
Recommend? Yes 6
No 2
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******
Feb 1, 08:31
Report commentThis comment has been removed by a moderator
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DunbarCommunityEnergyCo
7 posts
Feb 7, 10:05
Report commentOh dear, it’s all kicked off a bit. Sorry for being away. I wasn’t ignoring all of this, I had an unexpected stay in hospital. So, the East Lothian Courier should be presenting some results this week which will start the process of answering questions.
As far as my wages are concerned Chucklebunny.
I’m self employed, on a temporary contract, to develop community energy. I get paid the same as I would driving a bus for two days a week. The thing with driving a bus is... It’s pretty pointless if there are no passengers on board or if the passengers are arguing and fighting. Sometimes we don’t like the other passengers on the bus. Is it better to make the most of it because the bus is going somewhere decent or to stay in the bus station and go nowhere?
At least of you’re on the bus you have some sort of say in where to go and why.
Concerned resident has said “happy to meet up” but hasn’t been in touch. Messages from the website come directly to me. Get in touch
Iain
Recommend? Yes 5
No 0
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Chucklebunny
Unregistered User
Feb 7, 10:58
Report commentI find your bus analogy amusing. If you're getting paid the same as driving a bus for 2 days a week then what return is the community seeing for the rest of the £115,000 spent on wages in 2010? And £25 in membership income - not much in the way of bus fares, is it? Let's face it, subsidy is providing a nice comfortable lifestyle for the self-styled eco warriors of Sustaining Dunbar. It's a pity the Courier wouldn't look behind your PR and see what your group is really doing for the community.
Recommend? Yes 2
No 1
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